Page 1755 in Little Garden
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Average Rating: 5
Number of people who have voted: 1


By the same author as Grand Line 3.5
Comments:

Samantha




20th Jun 2022, 12:54 AM

Opportunity Action rules are weird sometimes.

It's worse that you move away than if you can't.

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Heyoceama




20th Jun 2022, 2:21 AM

One of the things I love about Pathfinder 2e is that Attacks of Opportunity aren't the standard. They still exist but it's a rare surprise rather than a constant threat that discourages moving around.

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Necroes




20th Jun 2022, 6:41 AM

Having played Pathfinder 2e, I can honestly say that there are more creatures with the ability to make AoO than there are ones that can't. Basically, any creature that primarily fights in melee combat has the ability, and more creatures than not are primarily melee oriented.
So, while in theory Pathfinder 2e 'doesn't punish moving around,' practically speaking it's still very much that way. They just made it harder for player characters to have that ability, as almost none of the playable classes can take it as an option, and none of them have the ability to do it by default.

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Heyoceama




20th Jun 2022, 8:29 PM

I've played 2e as well, although admittedly so far only at a lower level of play, and it's not really been an issue. We've cleared an entire dungeon and not one enemy was capable of AoOs, even the ones that were melee enemies.

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Alchemik




23rd Jun 2022, 1:13 AM

As a current GM of a 2e game, not really? Fighters get AoO at 1st for free and Barbarians, Champions, Magi, and Swashbucklers can take it at 6th. Additionally, anyone can invest a 2nd and 4th level feat in the fighter multiclass archetype to get it. Furthermore, it's incredibly rare (for players and NPCs) to have more than one AoO per turn, unlike older games, which does a lot to free up movement even when AoOs are in play. And like Heyoceama said, most NPCs don't actually have it. Looking at Aon, there are currently 1916 creatures. If you search for Attack of Opportunity, 298 creatures show up in the lists. Let's assume another 102 creatures have it and didn't show in the search somehow or have something similar for a total of 400. That's 20.87%. That's a decent amount, but I wouldn't call it most.

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Otaku

Otaku




20th Jun 2022, 11:13 AM

I never really understood Attacks of Opportunity. No, that's not right: from what little do understand, I don't agree with the mechanic. I get, for example, keeping track of a specific area and attacking anything that shows up in that area... but instead of that giving you extra attacks, it seems to me it should just require watching your regular attacks be spent on it... and if nothing moves through there, that turn's worth of attacks are still "spent".

That could all just be me, though, the GURPS fanboy that I am.

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Guest




20th Jun 2022, 12:16 PM

The point of AoOs is to give front line fighters the ability to protect their allies.

It's similar to the 'zone of control' in other kinds of games, once a melee fighter has you engaged, disengaging has to be made more difficult than regular movement or ranged combat gets even more crazy powerful.

So if you don't have some equivalent rule, you get games where the monsters can attack the casters with impunity and the fighters are just punching bags or DPS machines and tanking is impossible without the ability to provide some kind of control beyond killing power.

Conditional punishment abilities like AoOs are just the way D&D chooses to do that. It works well, in 3rd and 4th edition. I am thoroughly unimpressed with 5e on this front.

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Otaku

Otaku




20th Jun 2022, 4:12 PM

Most of that went over my head. Which probably means I just don't know what I'm talking about. Still, I'll explain myself a little

"The point of AoOs is to give front line fighters the ability to protect their allies."

In my admittedly limited experience, this usually hasn't been a problem. For D&D, all I've actually played is 3e (not even 3.5!) and so little of that it barely counts. XP For the other systems I played, this wasn't usually an issue. Even when it was, I think that was kind of the point for that particular encounter.

Again, though, thanks for answering. :)

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Guest




21st Jun 2022, 6:17 PM

In order to understand the issue you have to ask yourself the question: in a typical adventuring party, what is stopping the monsters from just ignoring the tough as nails fighter and attacking the squishy wizard?

Some tables just make the monsters stupid and they just attack whatever they can attack without any regard for tactics. In such cases, all the fighter needs to do is be within the reach of his enemies and all the wizard needs to do is be out of the reach of his enemies.

In MMORPGs, where the monsters threat assessment is handled by an algorithm, they give the tank classes taunts. Abilities that make the Castor be heated as if they had just allowed a big chunk of damage despite not actually dealing any damage. For tabletop RPGs, this is a terrible mechanic that should not be used. Well, at least be used as standard practice. Using mind control or sick burns or whatever to drive your enemies into mindless rages is pretty cool, after all.

In video games that have turn-based combat, some of them have a concept known as zone of control. This is an area around either all combatants, or melee combatants, or as a special ability of specific units, that if entered, ends the movement of whatever moves in. The last game I played with such a concept was a civilization six. This limits the ability of the enemies to ignore frontline melee combatants because they can't just walk past them.

In D&D 3rd edition and beyond, attacks of opportunity is how the zone of control mechanic is manifested. If you try to get out of melee, the enemy gets free hits. Whether this escape is to run away or to attack someone that is not that frontline is irrelevant. In all such cases there are ways to avoid attacks of opportunity, but those ways have costs, frequently in the form of preventing you from also attacking. At the same time, enemies or characters that are supposed to be nimble, able to move in and out of combat as a matter of course, can just acquire special abilities that allow one to ignore attacks of opportunity, or gain defensive bonuses against them.

As a result, with one mechanic you have created a facet to your combat system that significantly deepens the tactical complexity. Some people argue that this is a bad thing. I say that's a matter of opinion.

In my opinion, attacks of opportunity are a great way to implement zone of control, because it means that in order for the fighter types to be able to control the battlefield, they need to actually be good at hitting things and dealing damage. This is a good thing.

A second consideration is the eternal argument of melee attacks versus ranged attacks. All things equal, ranged attacks are better. Because they're ranged. Melee attacks need some kind of edge over ranged attacks, if you want to implement a balanced system. Attacks of opportunity is also a good way to allow melee that edge. Without a mechanic similar to zone of control, there's nothing stopping archers from just walking away and then shooting their bow. Forcing heroic archers to invest in mobility to allow them to do that despite the presence of melee is just good times all around.

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Otaku

Otaku




21st Jun 2022, 8:48 PM

What if you're not playing D&D? My default tabletop RPG is GURPS. So, when you ask me

In a typical adventuring party, what is stopping the monsters from just ignoring the tough as nails fighter and attacking the squishy wizard?

The answer is a lot of things. :) Seriously, I've been trying to answer this for 3+ hours now, (I LOST TRACK OF TIME XP) and you need to understand this may be a problem of D&D's own making because I don't run into it in GURPS. Well, unless that is specifically supposed to be part of the challenge. Super long answers also make it easy to miss things...

Some games use shorter combat turns (GURPS uses one second combat turns), so something like running past the "warriors" to get to the "squishes" in the back can take a few turns and leaves you open to attacks. Not everyone in the back is necessarily a "squish" as not every warrior is meant to be on the front line. Not every system forces mages to be "squishes" either. Though characters focused on magic aren't likely to also be a skilled swordsman, they still might be competent (as opposed to really skilled) at some melee combat skill.

Archers firing and retreating is a real strategy so... kind of need to deal with it. For starters, it takes time to load and aim a bow. Not a huge amount of time, but more than single, one-second combat round in GURPS. One second to take an arrow from your quiver and notch it in your bow. One second to draw back, aim (more to aim well), and one more to actually fire. Most of us can run neither far nor fast backwards, so that archer firing then moving back still has to deal with a charging swordsman or spearman pretty quickly... and that's assuming your party's own ranged attackers don't return fire first. If archers are firing and falling back, odds are they are turning around and running for a few seconds between shots...

The default GURPS Magic system is such that mages usually have at least one good offensive Spell and/or defensive Spell... and GURPS does not use "X Spells per day" for casting, but having X amount of Energy. With higher Skill levels in Spells allowing you to cast faster, with less of your own Energy and more drawn from your surroundings. Range can very, but considering there is an entire class known as "Missile Spells" and another known as "Area Spells"... well, your squishy wizard really should have something to contribute. In my old gaming group, it was quite likely your mage had a Missile Spell known well enough to cast it in no time (so you could throw it the next turn) and spending none of your own Energy (at least for the 1d6 damage version). You do still have to roll to hit the turn you actually throw it... but most combats, you were throwing a lot of Fire Ball or Stone Missile or Light Bolt etc.

Attacks of Opportunity may be necessary to balance combat in D&D... but that is either a flaw or feature of D&D. I also believe it only makes sense as a "game" mechanic, not a real-world thing. This may not be the short answer I'd intended, but it still isn't as detailed or long as I could have gone. If you want to continue, maybe PM me since we're eating up a lot of real estate in the comments? :)

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Guest




22nd Jun 2022, 2:52 PM

You focused too much on the example and not the concepts I was trying to explain.

The GURPS solution to the problems is by breaking down actions into a bunch of sub-actions, and the advantage of melee as a control tool is that swinging swords or whatever is faster than alternatives. That means the fighter types are a threat by getting those extra attacks.

AoOs are essentially extra attacks that only melee people get, to a similar end of that comparative advantage.

Is that direct enough for you to understand?

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Samantha




21st Jun 2022, 12:43 AM

The idea should be about dropped guard. This it attacks when you're drinking potions, pulling levers, or turning around.

Moving away shouldn't be a trigger, but turning your back should. D&D tokens need facing rules.

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fellow

fellow




21st Jun 2022, 8:28 AM

I mean, you can take a five foot step away from someone in melee, right? You can move away from someone, just not at full speed.

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Halosty45

Halosty45




21st Jun 2022, 3:28 PM

But if you take a 5-foot step, you can't take other movement and then they can just move to engage you again. You have to withdraw (or disengage in 5e), spending actions that could be used to attack on just moving closer to a target.
Or take the risk of getting attacked, with either option giving the blocking character some agency instead of just having someone walk past them and lamely walking behind them stabbing them on your turn.

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Rzz




21st Jun 2022, 6:01 PM

In 3.5 (not sure about other editions), there's also the Tumble skill. By default, it lets you move at half speed without provoking. With enough skill, you can move at full speed.

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Samantha




21st Jun 2022, 12:39 AM

I like how my homebrew system New Gaia handled things. You have reactions (and interrupts and other stuff, thanks to feature creep) and you have opportunity.
Reactions are all defence, like blocking with shield (uses deflecting mechanic), dodging, or resisting stuff. Opportunity can be offensive, but requires an initiative roll.

The cool thing about this is that if initiative is bad enough, the one who has opportunity acts fist, and you went to make an opportunity action only to walk into a trap. You can also critical fail and things like skipped opportity happen. This allows interrupts of turns to be more even.

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